Fiona Maeve Geist: Weird & Wonderful Interviews

Fiona needs no introduction; if you're reading this blog you definitely know who she is already. What you may not know is that she is the editor of Maximum Recursion Depth and has been playing in my MRD campaign for over a year now, but in this conversation, like many of ours previously, we go aaalll over the place :).

Check out Disk Horse or read my not-review

Max: Starting with an off-kilter question, you have a very distinct aesthetic, there's probably a word for it, of a sort of grungy scifi punk sort of thing, I think you know what I'm referring to. What about that aesthetic speaks to you? How did you discover it?

Fiona: So I think I'm interested in a lot of things that aren't really game design and I'm always interested in how it bleeds into things I write. I'm interested in, ultimately, how technology shapes society and how people make due "eating soup with a knife" that is, using a tool to accomplish a task that isn't quite the task it was shaped for but it is the closest equivalent.

I also am interested, broadly, in like the culture of marginal people and how they exist within larger systems, I think like in the US there's a tendency to call that "punk" since kinda the image of like... punk as 80s anti-establishment fashion/music/personal expression.

And like... I like punk music? I grew up playing punk music and a few of my favorite albums are probably, broadly, some sort of punk music.

I think a lot of the aesthetic I try for in Mothership stuff, mostly, I guess it's sort of in everything is the concept of making something out of failed materials or inadequate materials or scavenged materials and inventing a reason for the system.

Like I liked Kafka and Stanislaw Lem a lot but I also think Rita Indiana's Tentacle is one of the best pieces of cosmic horror I've read.

Like... I think games often don't find culture very interesting because they do something sitcom-y and I don't think it's wrong or bad or even bad design but I guess what I'm most interested in is like... kinda what cultures do under strain and change and especially do to people who are displaced by emerging or changing technology.

So I guess a world of decaying machines and such appeals to me because I really do kinda fund Shinya Tsukamoto and William Gibson kinda foundational for how I see a lot of sci-fi aesthetics more than Blade Runner? (Even if I like PKD an awful lot).

Max: When you say "games don't often find culture very interesting" and that they "do things sitcom-y", can you elaborate a bit on what you mean by that? I think I understand, but to make sure.

Fiona: So, I think like right games firstly to be certain I don't seem like I'm making an elitist claim: have their own culture and most games are systems/settings slash whatever that aren't interested in like... what I'd call like... the daily life of NPCs?

Like "protagonist syndrome" maybe where PCs are kinda implied to be the people that change things and the world around them reacts to their major decisions but like... the world bends around them including like bigger social changes (and to be clear this is a vast simplification) but like one way of putting it is that like... games usually are about a core cast that moves through a world where they are protagonists and that like is a very specific type of story and like... I get it?

But like... I think science-fantasy/picaresques/cyberpunk slash honestly a lot of genres have a unique life in how people just sort of go through things? I've been reading Gene Wolfe's New Sun books and I think what's impressive about them (which I feel sort of stupid being like "a canonically well regarded science fantasy book that has won several awards is shocker fucking good) is how alien so much of the culture is but characters still have these very sensible motivations which make this fantastical story work before you get into how many framing devices there are to the goddamn thing.

Like I think a lot of the appeal of older RPGs to some extent was the appeal of something like Ran (a movie I watched today and I feel very cultured for watching) where there's these sort of big power politics decisions and battles and etc. but it's all very much about cultural decisions (including how it is adapting a work to a different context and gender swapping characters).

Like... I think a lot of contemporary things sort of "have solved elves" like elves are (this amalgamation of contemporary ideas about elves) and like that reflects a lot of ideas but there's no real feeling elves are anything other than humans with pointy ears who like nature.

And I think what's interesting about independent games is the ability to make something that has both this very specific and contextual like bit of feeling while simultaneously having environmental storytelling beyond a skeleton holding a note explaining backstory but also have a sense it is something you could pick up and make your own because it isn't so well defined that you are breaking some unspoken rule by playing an NPC to your strengths rather than the modules plan.

Max: What you say about elves, that, to me, has always seemed like more of a failure of imagination. I mean, I understand the people who lean into that conscientiously and use that in effective ways as you're describing. But especially as someone who I know is interested in these bigger themes of transhumanism and of evolving the idea of what culture and identity can mean, that idea of elves seems just so limiting.

You've contributed so much to indie TTRPGs already, but along these lines, are there any... conceits (for lack of a better term), whether that's game mechanics or settings or something more meta, that you've been thinking about, with regard to TTRPGs?

Fiona: I think on the first part and some of this is probably where like... my divergent thinking from people is somethings extremely cringe and I sound very fucking weird and hippie-ish: I think a lot about the Thomas Nagel essay "What Is It Like To Be A Bat" (I think I have the title right) where he makes this like pretty profound claim that humans cannot see the world like a bat sees the world or even adequately map it they can only measure it empirically (kinda) and make educated guesses about what it would be like and I think about how that leads into fine distinctions often like "why are pod people or zombies allegedly scary?" (they represent the concept of mass conformity) so like I think one of the interesting things potentially about elves is that they represent a very different way of seeing the world that includes not having a human centric view of it, humans just are a thing that exists which like... I think is why I think like fantasy currently suffers from stuffing so much fantastical stuff into a setting you just sort of make fantasy a substitute technology to make the world more familiar (like how RPG shops work in the JRPG era vs in the power climb module era of like contemporary RPGs and like this is a disoriented TANGENT anyway).

Max: I have also been thinking about the concept of Qualia lately, coincidentally enough, so it's a good tangent!

Fiona: I don't know what I've ultimately contributed to games, I think mostly what I care about a lot is the concept of trying to make honest and like authentic work by being sincere about what you want to make and then ruthlessly evaluating the potential for it to achieve the aim.

And doing the work to bridge the space between one's taste and skill, I hope in like 10 years to feel like I did pretty good work that I have continuously improved upon and that along the way I got better as an editor, that I picked up other skills and that I made work that people found useful and/or meaningful but also that whether or not people enjoyed or read my work is something beyond my control.

I hope ultimately the point to most of my work is that people have the freedom to invent anything they want and I hope that I help them imagine something fantastical and meaningful to them that they feel something sublime in sharing with others and honestly I also simultaneously fear someone sincerely sharing that with me because like I don't know what to say about that because like I'm basically a stranger whose writing was interesting to them.

Max: There are few people who would use words like "honest and authentic" and "ruthless" in the same context, but I very much agree and I think that is one of many reasons why we get along haha.

Fiona: I mean "honest" and "authentic" are both like... weird terms to me because they're like kinda a mood board for a brand. But like... they're honestly things I think people should aspire to and I think it's ultimately also healthy if somewhat like... difficult at first to like... do the sort of self evaluation that is necessary for being a good craftsperson and I see myself as a maker in some sense. That is being ruthless about your own work. Like there's a Richard Pryor quote I like about no child telling their mother they want to grow up to be a critic. And like... I think some of the like creator dislike of critics is like kinda facile on "yes a critic often doesn't make the same thing as you and is judging by a criteria beyond commercial success" (which is the difference between critical coverage and PR) but like... right to read your own work as a critic but also press yourself to overcome that is how you get better at something and also to subject your own work to criticism. But like... I think legitimate fields require a critical field and it's a thing that excites me about NERVES and Anti-Sisyphus.

Max: Ya, I absolutely agree. Maybe let's talk about that a bit more, if you're able to do so. I've read the first issue of NERVES, the... I actually don't quite know how to describe it, the critical analysis journal of indie TTRPGs? In any case, what are the future plans for NERVES or Anti-Sisyphus? And I don't necessarily mean in like a logistical sense, but conceptually, what do you hope to do with that? Where do you see it going? What kind of influence would you hope for it to have?

Fiona: I don't run either! But like I do actually want to write something for NERVES and I've written a pseudo-response-journal thing to Jared on Twitter before he quit Twitter called Anti-Sissy-Fuss which I think like there's one of those that I deleted the thread for and etc.

Max: Oh that's right, my mistake! I knew you were involved with NERVES but I forgot to what extent exactly. I think that speaks to how deeply embedded you are in the community and how many projects you're involved with that I forgot.

Fiona: lol I feel so weird about how much work I've done like... the weird thing of looking back over like a few years and being like "wow I've like worked on a disturbingly large number of large and mid sized projects." 

Like also smaller stuff and like... the weird thing of as an individual writer I'm not actually particularly notable but like... I'm hoping to actually start releasing work and focusing on like honing and crafting some things.

Max: haha I can appreciate that, hustling so you can stop hustling...

Fiona: I mean, I'm a woman of simple tastes who mostly wants to work on like small scale projects and do weird perfectionist stuff around like bits of design.

Max: Any chance I can get you to reveal some details on some of these new projects as an individual writer you're working on?

Fiona: I owe projects! which is probably like a thing, since while I did put out like the digital version of my COVID-derailed Zinequest Zine I still owe a physical and like that's just been delayed by like a series of weird things with like "doing incredibly small scale things is not actually efficient but it's about a process and it's why I threw a lot of caveat emptor stuff up but also was way more optimistic about my timeline when there wasn't a world altering pandemic and my rapid transition into working online after working a medical-adjacent job for years while being someone with an anxiety disorder". But I don't like parasocial marketing so I've tried not to document that lol I am actually terrible at giving interviews. But like... I have a lot of things written but mostly I am interested in working on them when I have more time and putting in work to like create sustainable small scale publishing that avoids like a lot of the problems of hype based marketing but rather sustainable growth by having a long term commitment to the things you make interests me. And I think a lot of people are doing that work

Max: Don't think of this as an interview then, this is just another one of our many long and weird conversations!

But ya, like it almost seems trite to talk about when we often get into some headier things, but the idea of writing and publishing in a sustainable way, and finding that balance between creating because you want to create, and falling into a hype cycle because you want people to care about the things you're excited about, or need them to be excited about in order to financially justify the effort, as the case may be, but it's unfortunate that that has to be the case.

Fiona: I mean I think this is the actual heartbreaker part of the industry, like it's less people bet the farm on their 3.5 homebrew setting that is mostly the core rules with a few house rules but is a 60 dollar hard cover, mostly to justify having a lot of lore.

but more that like there isn't just the appreciation that like... doing something is perhaps worth it for reasons beyond money but also the reality is yes people should be paid and I think the most harmful thing to that is not amateurism but amateurism causing people to undervalue their own talent and charge too little for their work justifying an overall devaluing of "the work".

Max: For sure, especially with things like itch, where there's just been this mass explosion of creators, and it can easily turn into a race to the bottom.

Do you have any advice you would give to people trying to figure out how to effectively value their work, or get their ideas out there without falling into the "hype cycle"?

As much as you talk down about yourself, and I don't mean to downplay those feelings, but I stand by what I've said that you are an influential figure who has accomplished a lot, and so what you have to say here I do think has real weight to it.

Fiona: My really uncool and legitimately me being the best and most sincere I can be in this answer is: 

first ask yourself: am I taking care of myself, is my life like basically in some way managed?

If yes: do I see an immediate way to improve the overall way that RPGs are made or do I just want to play rpgs?

If you care about how they are made: how much do you care about either trying to make some sort of organization that exists to enforce extremely unglamorous labor claims involving the really mundane parts of this industry? Or teach people minor professional and business skills?

If you want to play RPGs: do you want to do some sort of performing art or like write reviews of things you run or etc.

Let me point out some very uncool parts of this: I'm really not talking about anything ideological here but I am really certain how people feel about me will color how they interpret this.

The first question is because like I think it's really easy to get excited about a project, it's especially really easy to get excited about it when you can get a bunch of people on board to promote what you are doing because like you sincerely want to or because you want to give it a try or because you have something mostly completed but just a little bit of polish or etc. etc. etc. it's really hard to finish the project, deliver the project and then continue selling the project. And I think a lot of the model for being a game designer has been a kind of obfuscated "build the brand" mantra of like increasingly selling a back catalogue but also using crowdfunding to raise a lot of awareness: which like I don't think is like a unique sin to any goddamn person or even really a sin it's just I don't think a very sustainable business practice and like the real work actually starts with the unsold copies of a book after you have successfully printed it. Since you have to sell it somewhere and there are a list of places who will buy it wholesale but they probably will not buy a lot of copies and they aren't naturally incentivized to market it, like realistically the business of a store is not to sell your individual product it is to sell products.

There are obvious exceptions to this, but right my point in this thought experiment/bit of advice is: the conclusion of this is start your own store or sell a digital copy on itch/DTRPG with either a print on demand button or like a store link to sell individual copies, that's actually kinda a large decision. But realistically: if you are using a professional business platform you are basically starting a business. Like... a majority of businesses fail and it's probably ok and healthy to fail and making a small risk on printing a few zines is fine.

You shouldn't be discouraged by my opinion if you feel a burning desire to create something because you should feel a burning desire to create something. Or "I think people should feel a burning desire to create something" but like... end of my Ted Talk: "take calculated risks, be extremely realistic about what you can actually deliver, don't over-promise things, actually accept growth is an extremely slow and tedious process with bursts of excitement".

Max: Not only would I not say this answer is uncool, I might go so far as to say it's the opposite of uncool (I believe the ancients called that... cool?). I appreciate how, in a very systematic way, from the get-go, you prioritize self-care in this response, then community, but as a function of having one's own shit together.

And as for that latter part about continuing to sell the project even after delivery, the existential frustration and despair of that is something I am intimately familiar with and really cannot be overstated, yet I don't think I've ever heard anyone, myself included, express it in this way.

While I agree with the final point with regard to having your own store and taking the reins because nobody else will do it for you, I think there's an existential component you tap into, of being prepared for all that this entails, that truly can't be overstated, in addition to the logistical aspects.

Fiona: Well yeah I mean this is ultimately why I think people should get UBI. Just... I think people could do amateur things as amateurs for actual fun they wouldn't need to sell the end result they could just... do something they like because they have the security to pursue some pleasure. If they felt skilled at it or passionate about it they could make a go of selling it because it is something they feel a passionate need to share their vision with others. That's idealistic tho and I'm a cynically practical person. I think there are people really having those conversations and doing the work and I'm proud to call them friends and work on projects with them. I try not to give shout outs because of like... weird feelings of conflict of interest in a small field but I think anyone who has sincerely talked to me in the past two years knows who they are.

Max: This was a really awesome analysis of the industry as it currently exists, and I genuinely think really valuable advice for new creators or bloggers or small-scale creators trying to think about how to take the next step or understand what that will look like. 

So as far as I'm concerned you always have a platform with me, but for the time being, are there any last things you'd like to say?

Fiona: It would make me immeasurably pleased if people watched extremely weird and excellent science-fantasy/dying world/cosmic horror film "On the Silver Globe" which I think is a fundamentally beautiful piece of art which inspires me as a creator.

Max: I watched it at your suggestion and no joke it inspired me in deep and profound ways.