Fiona Maeve Geist: Weird & Wonderful Interviews

Fiona needs no introduction; if you're reading this blog you definitely know who she is already. What you may not know is that she is the editor of Maximum Recursion Depth and has been playing in my MRD campaign for over a year now, but in this conversation, like many of ours previously, we go aaalll over the place :).

Check out Disk Horse or read my not-review

Max: Starting with an off-kilter question, you have a very distinct aesthetic, there's probably a word for it, of a sort of grungy scifi punk sort of thing, I think you know what I'm referring to. What about that aesthetic speaks to you? How did you discover it?

Fiona: So I think I'm interested in a lot of things that aren't really game design and I'm always interested in how it bleeds into things I write. I'm interested in, ultimately, how technology shapes society and how people make due "eating soup with a knife" that is, using a tool to accomplish a task that isn't quite the task it was shaped for but it is the closest equivalent.

I also am interested, broadly, in like the culture of marginal people and how they exist within larger systems, I think like in the US there's a tendency to call that "punk" since kinda the image of like... punk as 80s anti-establishment fashion/music/personal expression.

And like... I like punk music? I grew up playing punk music and a few of my favorite albums are probably, broadly, some sort of punk music.

I think a lot of the aesthetic I try for in Mothership stuff, mostly, I guess it's sort of in everything is the concept of making something out of failed materials or inadequate materials or scavenged materials and inventing a reason for the system.

Like I liked Kafka and Stanislaw Lem a lot but I also think Rita Indiana's Tentacle is one of the best pieces of cosmic horror I've read.

Like... I think games often don't find culture very interesting because they do something sitcom-y and I don't think it's wrong or bad or even bad design but I guess what I'm most interested in is like... kinda what cultures do under strain and change and especially do to people who are displaced by emerging or changing technology.

So I guess a world of decaying machines and such appeals to me because I really do kinda fund Shinya Tsukamoto and William Gibson kinda foundational for how I see a lot of sci-fi aesthetics more than Blade Runner? (Even if I like PKD an awful lot).

Max: When you say "games don't often find culture very interesting" and that they "do things sitcom-y", can you elaborate a bit on what you mean by that? I think I understand, but to make sure.

Fiona: So, I think like right games firstly to be certain I don't seem like I'm making an elitist claim: have their own culture and most games are systems/settings slash whatever that aren't interested in like... what I'd call like... the daily life of NPCs?

Like "protagonist syndrome" maybe where PCs are kinda implied to be the people that change things and the world around them reacts to their major decisions but like... the world bends around them including like bigger social changes (and to be clear this is a vast simplification) but like one way of putting it is that like... games usually are about a core cast that moves through a world where they are protagonists and that like is a very specific type of story and like... I get it?

But like... I think science-fantasy/picaresques/cyberpunk slash honestly a lot of genres have a unique life in how people just sort of go through things? I've been reading Gene Wolfe's New Sun books and I think what's impressive about them (which I feel sort of stupid being like "a canonically well regarded science fantasy book that has won several awards is shocker fucking good) is how alien so much of the culture is but characters still have these very sensible motivations which make this fantastical story work before you get into how many framing devices there are to the goddamn thing.

Like I think a lot of the appeal of older RPGs to some extent was the appeal of something like Ran (a movie I watched today and I feel very cultured for watching) where there's these sort of big power politics decisions and battles and etc. but it's all very much about cultural decisions (including how it is adapting a work to a different context and gender swapping characters).

Like... I think a lot of contemporary things sort of "have solved elves" like elves are (this amalgamation of contemporary ideas about elves) and like that reflects a lot of ideas but there's no real feeling elves are anything other than humans with pointy ears who like nature.

And I think what's interesting about independent games is the ability to make something that has both this very specific and contextual like bit of feeling while simultaneously having environmental storytelling beyond a skeleton holding a note explaining backstory but also have a sense it is something you could pick up and make your own because it isn't so well defined that you are breaking some unspoken rule by playing an NPC to your strengths rather than the modules plan.

Max: What you say about elves, that, to me, has always seemed like more of a failure of imagination. I mean, I understand the people who lean into that conscientiously and use that in effective ways as you're describing. But especially as someone who I know is interested in these bigger themes of transhumanism and of evolving the idea of what culture and identity can mean, that idea of elves seems just so limiting.

You've contributed so much to indie TTRPGs already, but along these lines, are there any... conceits (for lack of a better term), whether that's game mechanics or settings or something more meta, that you've been thinking about, with regard to TTRPGs?

Fiona: I think on the first part and some of this is probably where like... my divergent thinking from people is somethings extremely cringe and I sound very fucking weird and hippie-ish: I think a lot about the Thomas Nagel essay "What Is It Like To Be A Bat" (I think I have the title right) where he makes this like pretty profound claim that humans cannot see the world like a bat sees the world or even adequately map it they can only measure it empirically (kinda) and make educated guesses about what it would be like and I think about how that leads into fine distinctions often like "why are pod people or zombies allegedly scary?" (they represent the concept of mass conformity) so like I think one of the interesting things potentially about elves is that they represent a very different way of seeing the world that includes not having a human centric view of it, humans just are a thing that exists which like... I think is why I think like fantasy currently suffers from stuffing so much fantastical stuff into a setting you just sort of make fantasy a substitute technology to make the world more familiar (like how RPG shops work in the JRPG era vs in the power climb module era of like contemporary RPGs and like this is a disoriented TANGENT anyway).

Max: I have also been thinking about the concept of Qualia lately, coincidentally enough, so it's a good tangent!

Fiona: I don't know what I've ultimately contributed to games, I think mostly what I care about a lot is the concept of trying to make honest and like authentic work by being sincere about what you want to make and then ruthlessly evaluating the potential for it to achieve the aim.

And doing the work to bridge the space between one's taste and skill, I hope in like 10 years to feel like I did pretty good work that I have continuously improved upon and that along the way I got better as an editor, that I picked up other skills and that I made work that people found useful and/or meaningful but also that whether or not people enjoyed or read my work is something beyond my control.

I hope ultimately the point to most of my work is that people have the freedom to invent anything they want and I hope that I help them imagine something fantastical and meaningful to them that they feel something sublime in sharing with others and honestly I also simultaneously fear someone sincerely sharing that with me because like I don't know what to say about that because like I'm basically a stranger whose writing was interesting to them.

Max: There are few people who would use words like "honest and authentic" and "ruthless" in the same context, but I very much agree and I think that is one of many reasons why we get along haha.

Fiona: I mean "honest" and "authentic" are both like... weird terms to me because they're like kinda a mood board for a brand. But like... they're honestly things I think people should aspire to and I think it's ultimately also healthy if somewhat like... difficult at first to like... do the sort of self evaluation that is necessary for being a good craftsperson and I see myself as a maker in some sense. That is being ruthless about your own work. Like there's a Richard Pryor quote I like about no child telling their mother they want to grow up to be a critic. And like... I think some of the like creator dislike of critics is like kinda facile on "yes a critic often doesn't make the same thing as you and is judging by a criteria beyond commercial success" (which is the difference between critical coverage and PR) but like... right to read your own work as a critic but also press yourself to overcome that is how you get better at something and also to subject your own work to criticism. But like... I think legitimate fields require a critical field and it's a thing that excites me about NERVES and Anti-Sisyphus.

Max: Ya, I absolutely agree. Maybe let's talk about that a bit more, if you're able to do so. I've read the first issue of NERVES, the... I actually don't quite know how to describe it, the critical analysis journal of indie TTRPGs? In any case, what are the future plans for NERVES or Anti-Sisyphus? And I don't necessarily mean in like a logistical sense, but conceptually, what do you hope to do with that? Where do you see it going? What kind of influence would you hope for it to have?

Fiona: I don't run either! But like I do actually want to write something for NERVES and I've written a pseudo-response-journal thing to Jared on Twitter before he quit Twitter called Anti-Sissy-Fuss which I think like there's one of those that I deleted the thread for and etc.

Max: Oh that's right, my mistake! I knew you were involved with NERVES but I forgot to what extent exactly. I think that speaks to how deeply embedded you are in the community and how many projects you're involved with that I forgot.

Fiona: lol I feel so weird about how much work I've done like... the weird thing of looking back over like a few years and being like "wow I've like worked on a disturbingly large number of large and mid sized projects." 

Like also smaller stuff and like... the weird thing of as an individual writer I'm not actually particularly notable but like... I'm hoping to actually start releasing work and focusing on like honing and crafting some things.

Max: haha I can appreciate that, hustling so you can stop hustling...

Fiona: I mean, I'm a woman of simple tastes who mostly wants to work on like small scale projects and do weird perfectionist stuff around like bits of design.

Max: Any chance I can get you to reveal some details on some of these new projects as an individual writer you're working on?

Fiona: I owe projects! which is probably like a thing, since while I did put out like the digital version of my COVID-derailed Zinequest Zine I still owe a physical and like that's just been delayed by like a series of weird things with like "doing incredibly small scale things is not actually efficient but it's about a process and it's why I threw a lot of caveat emptor stuff up but also was way more optimistic about my timeline when there wasn't a world altering pandemic and my rapid transition into working online after working a medical-adjacent job for years while being someone with an anxiety disorder". But I don't like parasocial marketing so I've tried not to document that lol I am actually terrible at giving interviews. But like... I have a lot of things written but mostly I am interested in working on them when I have more time and putting in work to like create sustainable small scale publishing that avoids like a lot of the problems of hype based marketing but rather sustainable growth by having a long term commitment to the things you make interests me. And I think a lot of people are doing that work

Max: Don't think of this as an interview then, this is just another one of our many long and weird conversations!

But ya, like it almost seems trite to talk about when we often get into some headier things, but the idea of writing and publishing in a sustainable way, and finding that balance between creating because you want to create, and falling into a hype cycle because you want people to care about the things you're excited about, or need them to be excited about in order to financially justify the effort, as the case may be, but it's unfortunate that that has to be the case.

Fiona: I mean I think this is the actual heartbreaker part of the industry, like it's less people bet the farm on their 3.5 homebrew setting that is mostly the core rules with a few house rules but is a 60 dollar hard cover, mostly to justify having a lot of lore.

but more that like there isn't just the appreciation that like... doing something is perhaps worth it for reasons beyond money but also the reality is yes people should be paid and I think the most harmful thing to that is not amateurism but amateurism causing people to undervalue their own talent and charge too little for their work justifying an overall devaluing of "the work".

Max: For sure, especially with things like itch, where there's just been this mass explosion of creators, and it can easily turn into a race to the bottom.

Do you have any advice you would give to people trying to figure out how to effectively value their work, or get their ideas out there without falling into the "hype cycle"?

As much as you talk down about yourself, and I don't mean to downplay those feelings, but I stand by what I've said that you are an influential figure who has accomplished a lot, and so what you have to say here I do think has real weight to it.

Fiona: My really uncool and legitimately me being the best and most sincere I can be in this answer is: 

first ask yourself: am I taking care of myself, is my life like basically in some way managed?

If yes: do I see an immediate way to improve the overall way that RPGs are made or do I just want to play rpgs?

If you care about how they are made: how much do you care about either trying to make some sort of organization that exists to enforce extremely unglamorous labor claims involving the really mundane parts of this industry? Or teach people minor professional and business skills?

If you want to play RPGs: do you want to do some sort of performing art or like write reviews of things you run or etc.

Let me point out some very uncool parts of this: I'm really not talking about anything ideological here but I am really certain how people feel about me will color how they interpret this.

The first question is because like I think it's really easy to get excited about a project, it's especially really easy to get excited about it when you can get a bunch of people on board to promote what you are doing because like you sincerely want to or because you want to give it a try or because you have something mostly completed but just a little bit of polish or etc. etc. etc. it's really hard to finish the project, deliver the project and then continue selling the project. And I think a lot of the model for being a game designer has been a kind of obfuscated "build the brand" mantra of like increasingly selling a back catalogue but also using crowdfunding to raise a lot of awareness: which like I don't think is like a unique sin to any goddamn person or even really a sin it's just I don't think a very sustainable business practice and like the real work actually starts with the unsold copies of a book after you have successfully printed it. Since you have to sell it somewhere and there are a list of places who will buy it wholesale but they probably will not buy a lot of copies and they aren't naturally incentivized to market it, like realistically the business of a store is not to sell your individual product it is to sell products.

There are obvious exceptions to this, but right my point in this thought experiment/bit of advice is: the conclusion of this is start your own store or sell a digital copy on itch/DTRPG with either a print on demand button or like a store link to sell individual copies, that's actually kinda a large decision. But realistically: if you are using a professional business platform you are basically starting a business. Like... a majority of businesses fail and it's probably ok and healthy to fail and making a small risk on printing a few zines is fine.

You shouldn't be discouraged by my opinion if you feel a burning desire to create something because you should feel a burning desire to create something. Or "I think people should feel a burning desire to create something" but like... end of my Ted Talk: "take calculated risks, be extremely realistic about what you can actually deliver, don't over-promise things, actually accept growth is an extremely slow and tedious process with bursts of excitement".

Max: Not only would I not say this answer is uncool, I might go so far as to say it's the opposite of uncool (I believe the ancients called that... cool?). I appreciate how, in a very systematic way, from the get-go, you prioritize self-care in this response, then community, but as a function of having one's own shit together.

And as for that latter part about continuing to sell the project even after delivery, the existential frustration and despair of that is something I am intimately familiar with and really cannot be overstated, yet I don't think I've ever heard anyone, myself included, express it in this way.

While I agree with the final point with regard to having your own store and taking the reins because nobody else will do it for you, I think there's an existential component you tap into, of being prepared for all that this entails, that truly can't be overstated, in addition to the logistical aspects.

Fiona: Well yeah I mean this is ultimately why I think people should get UBI. Just... I think people could do amateur things as amateurs for actual fun they wouldn't need to sell the end result they could just... do something they like because they have the security to pursue some pleasure. If they felt skilled at it or passionate about it they could make a go of selling it because it is something they feel a passionate need to share their vision with others. That's idealistic tho and I'm a cynically practical person. I think there are people really having those conversations and doing the work and I'm proud to call them friends and work on projects with them. I try not to give shout outs because of like... weird feelings of conflict of interest in a small field but I think anyone who has sincerely talked to me in the past two years knows who they are.

Max: This was a really awesome analysis of the industry as it currently exists, and I genuinely think really valuable advice for new creators or bloggers or small-scale creators trying to think about how to take the next step or understand what that will look like. 

So as far as I'm concerned you always have a platform with me, but for the time being, are there any last things you'd like to say?

Fiona: It would make me immeasurably pleased if people watched extremely weird and excellent science-fantasy/dying world/cosmic horror film "On the Silver Globe" which I think is a fundamentally beautiful piece of art which inspires me as a creator.

Max: I watched it at your suggestion and no joke it inspired me in deep and profound ways.

SageDaMage: Weird & Wonderful Interviews

SageDaMage is an indie tabletop creator who I first properly got to know from the Funnel Jam which Sage hosted. I had intended to create a Superhero Funnel for the jam inspired by My Hero Academia, which later became my Superpowers 2.0 post. Unfortunately, I ended up overengineering the game a bit and it just didn't quite come together the way I would have hoped in time for the deadline, and I've always felt a little guilty about that.

However, since then Sage and I have played in several games together. He playtested the Superhero Funnel and also an extremely rough draft version of MRD2. I have also played in several games of his, including an Into the Odd one-shot based on World of Horror, the Into the Odd adventure The Iron Coral, and a condensed version of Silent Titans using MRD as the system (see my PC for that game here).

We also touch on some fairly heavy topics, a little bit at the beginning and especially at the end. I really appreciate what Sage had to say, so I hope others find this interview as moving and inspirational as I did.

This interview occurred before the official announcement or launch, but Sage is currently crowdfunding Discordantopia on itch!

Max: Your games trend towards being rules-light and mechanically distinct, even to the extent that they build off of other systems. Can you discuss your history with TTRPGs and your approach to game design?

Sage: My history with TTRPGs is fairly standard for people in my niche, I'd say. In 2014, my dad ran the 5e starter set. Aside from the fact that I nearly died IC for charging into battle as a wizard, I was absolutely enamored by being able to tell stories collaboratively. Specifically, that my dad could exert such control over the story and what we saw and interacted with. In 2014 I was a little too young, but I got back into it a few years later with Play-By-Post. I've been doing PBP for at least 5 years now. That's the basic history, although I can certainly go deeper into how I came to where I am today, at least in terms of game philosophy.

I started practicing my modern approach to game design well before I really knew how to run what I was writing, funnily enough. For example, my first two systems, Indexx and Anime Messerspiel, I couldn't run it if you wanted me to, at the time. I just knew that there was an audience for that sorta thing, was inspired by the systems I saw, and pressed publish! 

My gateway into learning more about how to actually run the games I wrote as well as designing more of them came through the FKR Collective, although the NSR discord was an important role too, although more for feedback than anything else. In about a year, I went from running structured games fairly tightly to, now, being able to run anything the way I like, including running no system at all!

Anyway, my approach to game design is more out of necessity than it is out of (initially, moreso) wanting to design small games. I have ADD it makes me constantly all over the place, bouncing from idea to idea. Most of what you see on my itch was completed in a short period of time, where I just kinda had a burst of motivation and finished it. I ALWAYS have grand ideas for RPGs. However, it's hard to get the attention to finish them. As well, although more recently, I've been preferring the lack of a grand RPG.

Max: Refining those grand ideas into something manageable is difficult with or without ADD, although I can imagine that only makes it harder. I did not realize you had ADD, but with that in addition to you being so young, if you don't mind me saying, it's impressive to me how engaged you are with TTRPGs and how much you've already created. So as far as the grand ideas go, take your time!

Sage: Thank you! I'm also autistic (might as well throw the big diagnosis out there), a symptom of which is hyper-fixation. Combined, though, with ADD, it's more of a scattered hyper-fixaton. And, I am taking my time! I have the luxury of it, and I certainly use it. I've been working on some big stuff, that I've surprisingly stuck to.

Max: Oh ya? Anything you would feel comfortable talking about?

Sage: The longest one so far is Spectrum, my therapeutic RPG, which I'm working on with an actual therapist. It was initially more for her than me, but as I've come to appreciate both wholesome RPGs as well as RPGs that deal with sensitive topics, it's kinda become my baby.

Max: Oh wow, that's super interesting and also a really admirable thing to put out in the world. I used to do research in psychology and neuroscience, not therapy or clinical work, but it's still something I deeply appreciate. Can you elaborate on the kinds of psychological concepts that will be explored in the game?

Sage: I want to make basically "playkits" for different types of therapy, which will guide the therapist (who probably hasn't touched an RPG before) to tailor the game to those themes. The therapist I'm making it for generally explores social anxiety and that sorta thing with her kids, but also does more generalized therapy, so the RPG medium ticks the first box, but then the RPG itself needs to be tailored to different players/groups. In the FKR fashion, it will be procedure heavy with minimal rules. 90-100% of them will be GM-facing. Undecided if there should be a way for the players to gain agency through a mechanic or not.

Max: Procedure-heavy is a good term for what I was referring to before. I'm less well read on the FKR scene so it didn't immediately come to mind but I think I've heard that phrase used before in the context of FKR.

You had mentioned starting with 5e and then moving in the direction of FKR, but what is it about the procedure-heavy, rules-light approach that appeals to you especially?

Sage: Part of what I don't like about 5e is that most of the players have expectations that need to be met on how the game is run. In order to solve that, I moved away from 5e. Then, I had players thinking quite mechanically, wanting to push mechanisms to progress in the story (I was running Dungeon World and other PbtA stuff for a bit). I had a problem with that, so I moved to the OSR. I felt that the OSR was a bit too into itself for my tastes, so moved to the NSR and Into the Odd. From there, I kept exploring the boundaries of my limits on what was too little or too much. Turns out, it was all attitude. I like the FKR because it's style can, theoretically, be applied to any game. To really enjoy myself, I just needed to sigh and let go the importance of rules.

Max: I appreciate the eclecticism for sure. Again, being less well-versed in FKR (if it had been a thing a couple of years earlier I probably would know more about it but I sort of missed the window...) I may lack some of the language or I may ask some rudimentary questions, but in any case, are there any specific kinds of procedures, or approaches to designing procedures, that have influenced you?

Sage: Out of everything, the one thing that stuck with me throughout my entire GMing career was a page from Worlds in Peril, a superhero game I played in, about narrative scale.

Basically, it talks about thinking about the scale at which you are having a conflict. Are you fighting mooks, or the main villain? If mooks, conditions (a mechanic in the game) applied should be lower in danger. If a villain, conditions applied would be a lot higher in danger.

Despite being mechanically bound, the advice was quite great for thinking about a combat narratively and how results could be reached.

A lot of it was "use common sense," which, up to that point, I'd never really heard before in an RPG. Shouldn't you rely on the mechanics to determine that stuff? I remember thinking to myself. Turns out, no. "Use common sense" is my biggest "procedure" when I GM, now.

When I talk about procedure, honestly, most of it is so ingrained in my mind from practice, that it's hard to put to words. Muscle memory, if you will. Also part of why Spectrum has taken a long time. I'm not used to putting the procedure I commonly employ to words.

Max: Designing on a larger scale like that is definitely a different beast from just playing or running games, you start to realize all the holes in your understanding, or how the writing and organization of a game like that requires a whole separate skillset on top of everything else.

It's funny you say that about Worlds in Peril, while I haven't played it, I actually had a similar experience with Mutants & Masterminds- it was also one of the first games to make me realize how "common sense" and narrative construction can go into TTRPGs and it's not all just the typical D&D stuff.

So in addition to the kinds of systems and procedures, what about narrative, genre and worldbuilding? You've discussed Worlds in Peril and you have a superhero game of your own. You've run a World of Horror-inspired Into the Odd one-shot which I was a player in, and several of the games on your itch page are inspired by anime, Japanese videogames, or Japanese culture. From a worldbuilding or narrative perspective, would you consider these to be among your primary influences? What else might you consider to be primary influences?

Sage: I would, I really love epic moments in anime, and doing that collaboratively at a table just amplifies that love.

Speaking of my dad again, after running some 5e, he decided to try out Lamentations of the Flame Princess. This was while I was still futzing around with 5e not understanding why the square doesn't fit in the circle. Over like 3 years now, he's created an amazing acid fantasy campaign with his friends, and it's always endlessly inspiring to me.

Specifically, outside of the genre itself, the idea that the story becomes more and more grand over time. After 3 years, the players have done a lot to shake the city they've been playing in for the majority of the time. They might even go on to save the world from galaxy-hopping snake people that help strange mythical demons hatch at the core of the world to then consume them!

I've had a peek of this a bit later than his game, through a 3-year Play-By-Post game in the Pokemon universe. It used to use Pokemon Tabletop United, and now uses my own Pokemon Zero.

Max: It's really cool that this is a passion you get to share with your dad. So he's the one who got you into TTRPGs, but is it because of his interest that you became passionate, or the other way around?

Sage: Yeah, he did get me into it, at least 5e. But then, before doing the Lamentations game, I was really passionate about RPGs, and inspired him to start the Lamentations game, thus going on to inspire me once more.

At some point down the line when I'm more confident in layout or can pay a layout artist, I want to make a system-neutral zine with my dad making the city he's been running into a thing other people can use.

Made a little layout plan, but haven't gotten too much further. Awhile ago, our goal was this ZineQuest to have something up, but that's far from happening now LOL!

Max: That's too bad that it may take a while longer, but that would also be a nice thing to be able to do!

Sage: Definitely!

Max: So we've talked about game design and procedures, worldbuilding, and even zines. What about adventure or campaign design? I know this is a thing you and I have discussed privately before, but I'm wondering if you've since thought more about it at all or changed how you think about it.

Sage: Adventures are tough for me, but I'm trying! I want to make a Liminal Horror mystery (again inspired by World of Horror), and finally finish my Mausritter adventure. Exciting news, recently; I'm going to have a little teaser of the adventure in ManaRampMatt's Bernpyle: YEAR ONE! It'll be in the hands of a lot of people, including myself, which is quite exciting! Something I want to do with future adventures (and the mystery I'm making) is make them more like DW Dungeon Starters than a rigid story. Asking questions to players, making the GM come up with explanations on the fly, that kinda thing. That's not really easier, but it does excite me more, which I guess makes it easier in the end.

Max: Motivation is a major factor! By Liminal Horror are you referring to a particular system (it sounds vaguely familiar), or do you mean that as a genre? And I have literally no idea what you mean by ManaRampMatt's Bernpyle: YEAR ONE, if you wouldn't mind explaining for me...

Sage: Liminal Horror is what I used in that World of Horror-inspired ItO one-shot 😉 

Bernpyle is a series of fan zines for Mausritter by Matt, who is making a compendium of them from his first year doing so, that recently funded on kickstarter.

Max: Ooh that's why it sounded familiar! Ah ok, ya I know of Mausritter but am not especially familiar, good to know.

I see on various discord servers, you seem to run more games than practically anyone else I know. Often it seems like the people who are into game design, myself included, spend more time talking about games, blogging, reading, etc., than actually playing them! How do you balance engagement between these different aspects of TTRPGs?

Sage: Well, for one, I've gotten very good at running PBP near-prepless. I only do as much prep as I want/have time to do. So, really, I only need as much time as it takes to write a post. And my PBP games aren't super fast, either, which helps me having many of them.

I generally do PBP earlier and/or later in the day, when I have less energy, and devote my actual writing and theorizing to the middle when I have the most energy and my brain's working. For voice games, well, I haven't been doing a ton of them recently, mostly one-shot stuff since the campaigns I try to do with randos constantly fizzle out and they take more work for me.

Max: It can be really hard to get a campaign off the ground with a new group of randos, I find that I have to cycle through a few people before something actually sticks.

I used to do some completely free-form PBP stuff when I was much younger, but have never done PBP within the TTRPG scene like what you do. How would you describe the differences between running or playing in PBP games vs. real-time games?

Sage: The main pro of PBP is that you can actually think of responses instead of having to do something rushed. However, due to everyone thinking of responses, the pace is definitely a lot slower or more just "throughout the day." The main drawback is similar. Just having conversations surrounding the game is hard. Generally, in PBP, you just think to yourself and do your action. Unlike voice or IRL games, there's very little discussion happening about what to do. Someone just does it. This can lead to some slogs where no one knows what to do but doesn't talk about it. Most of the time it's fine, it's just quite different in that way.

Max: There's something to be said for that for sure, real-time games can be really demanding and exhausting, but I can also imagine the drawbacks of PBP that you're referring to.

We've covered a lot of ground, but is there anything else you'd like to talk about, or like to say?

Sage: I'd like to say a couple things to the readers real quick, while I have some eyes on the interview. Feel free to also discuss it yourself, Max.

Instead of doing boring self-promotion (which I'm sure Max has done for me anyway), I want to instill two things to readers of this interview. I'll start with the one that's outside of the indie TTRPG sphere. My mom has Dercum's Disease. I implore you to research it, I won't go into it too much, but I will say that it is a chronic, incurable disease which causes immense pain and is an autoimmune disorder. An important detail is that it is invisible. While my mom is permanently disabled and near-handicapped, no one would really know looking at her. The literal only way to tell is to feel her skin and find the fatty tumors in her lymphatic system. I mention this because, even as someone that lives around someone with an invisible disease, it is very hard to give them the sympathy they deserve because there's no visual cue to do so. It is a problem that is near and dear to my heart, and this opportunity to platform a bit is one I want to take helping. Even if 1 person has been reached by this, that's one more person than I wouldn't have reached had I not wrote this. To get on something happier, there's one other thing I wish to mention: how amazing the TTRPG community is. We are a part of an emerging medium that could revolutionize entertainment. I truly feel that. I just want you, the reader, to know that you're lucky to be a part of this community at this time. After the slump of 4e, within the massive spike of popularity from 5e. It allows us to leave a unique impact on the hobby as a whole. You just need to take the steps to do so. And many people are! In fact, it is awe-inspiring to me how reachable these "indie titans" are. While definitely not titans outside the sphere, never forget that your TTRPG hero is a Discord/Twitter DM away. It's very humanizing, to me, that people I basically idolize for their design are a click away. Anyway, that's enough of me giving my Valuable Life Lessons(TM).

Max: Wow, you really caught me off guard with this I have to say. I appreciate you saying all of this. Like what you were saying even with ADD and autism as well, there are a lot of ways people can be struggling or suffering right in front of us, without it being obvious. I'm sorry that that's a thing you've had to deal with in multiple regards. It's all the more impressive to me now, how much you've already accomplished for someone so young, and for having such a positive attitude, and having this kind of perspective about the importance of a healthy community. I hope others appreciate what you have to say here as well, this was really wonderful. In practically every one of these interviews I do, at some point I say, "this is why I do these interviews", but I don't know if anything can top this, you've well deservedly taken the crown!

Sage: Thank you! I appreciate the opportunity. Being nice pays off so much in so many ways, it's a wonder to me sometimes why you'd be any other way! I mean, there are a lot of reasons, and I've been there myself, but moreso just... choosing to be mean. People don't choose to have an anger issue or something, but they can choose to do something about it.

Max: I definitely agree with that. Without putting more pressure on you, I really look forward to one day seeing Spectrum. At the end of this interview, I can see how you've really got a good perspective on what TTRPGs can do and how they can be used to help people. Thanks for your doing this interview!

Sage: Not a problem. Lots of fun.

DIY & Dragons: Weird & Wonderful Interviews

Anne Hunter's DIY & Dragons was one of my entry points into the blogosphere, and she has consistently been a compelling voice and community driver.

Max: So one thing I really appreciate about you, is that you more so than practically anyone else in the blogosphere, have put an emphasis on promoting the community- whether that's your recent work with Bones of Contention, promoting Nick Whelan's Blogs on Tape endeavor, or your Best of the Blogosphere feature. What inspired you to be such a community driver?

Anne: That's really kind of you to say, thank you! Um, so I think there are a couple answers to that. One is that I'm kind of fascinated by trends and patterns, and I want to point them out when I see them. So I think in rpg blogging, you sometimes get these kind of zeitgeist-y moments, where a lot of people are talking about the same thing. And sometimes it's because one influential person wrote a post and lot of others are responding. Sometimes it's something that originates in "the discourse" on social media, whether that's Google Plus or Twitter or now Discord, and lots of people want to respond to it on their blogs. Sometimes it's a more organic version of the first one, where someone will post, a few people will see it and respond, and then new people will see those responses and write their own, like a chain. And then occasionally you'll get something planned, where a few people coordinate to do something together, and the rest of us don't see any of the planning, we just see the results. So I like noticing when those micro-trends happen, and several of my posts about the community are posts about things like that. I have so many more posts like that that I've started and then not followed up on in enough time and the moment is lost.

And the other big reason is that I'm very aware that the rpg is very social, and the way that people notice things, usually, is that someone else they know is talking them up. I mean maybe some people are combing DriveThru and now Itch every few days looking to see what's new. And some publishers can afford to do a bit of advertising for their products. Plus things like ZineQuest act as sort of free advertising, because if you go looking for one thing, you automatically get exposed to a bunch of others. (Although I should note that I first learned about ZineQuest from Pandatheist over on Bone Box Chant!) So when I see something that I think is cool or interesting, but isn't really being talked about, I feel like I want to promote it. I want to maybe help those people get a few more eyeballs than they have so far, and hope that more people who'll be interested will find it that way.

Max: Those are really great motivations. The latter point, about wanting to spread the word about all the cool stuff out there, is a big motivator for me as well with regard to these interviews. And the former point appeals to me as well- seeing the ebb and flow of a living culture.

You also have some awesome worldbuilding ideas of your own. I'm thinking about posts such as the one where you recontextualize traditional fantasy via an evocative relationship between Forgotten Realms and Dark Sun, or integrating Science Fiction and Science Fantasy species into otherwise traditional fantasy. There was another post from a long while back, I hope I'm remembering correctly, where you discuss the idea of Setups, and I think you used Star Trek Deep Space Nine as an example of a really good Setup to use as the basis of a campaign.

Is there a specific approach you have to these kinds of worldbuilding posts? How do you think about worldbuilding within the context of games? Or is this a fair characterization of what you do in the first place?

Anne: I think things like these interviews are great for creating a sense of community within an otherwise kind of diffuse online scene. I also try to be pretty careful about who I'm boosting (although I don't claim to think my own judgment is perfect.) There have been times when a few people with big, and frankly toxic personalities have really dominated the OSR space, just by virtue of seemingly everybody talking about them. So when possible, trying to build up stronger connections to people who seem interesting, but who aren't just dominating the space is a really nice goal in its own right. Make the scene better by giving attention to people who are both making cool things, but also who aren't being jerks, or worse, to the people around them. Make the scene better by cutting your own ties to people who are acting in a way that degrades everyone else's quality of life.

Max: I think that level of conscientiousness about not just promoting people, but also who you're promoting, is also really valuable. I'm glad that the scene has, on the whole, seemingly gotten better at it, but I think it's a shame the things that had to happen for the community on the whole to live up to that level of accountability.

Anne: I appreciate your interest in my worldbuilding posts, because probably I don't write enough of them. I'm sure a lot of us have this problem, where we've got a lot of ideas, and it can be a challenge to put enough of them in one place to have a coherent post. I find it easy to do with links to other people's things. I'll have some embarrassingly huge number of drafts going that start out just as lists of links that are similar or connected in some way, and ideally I'll go back and actually write the post around those. I try to do the same thing with my worldbuilding, but I'm less successful at it.

Max: I know exactly what you mean, like you can have a brilliant idea, but like 20% of it is the idea, and then 80% is putting it altogether coherently and in a way that's actually interesting to someone who can't see the mental image in your brain

As much as I appreciate all your community work, I wanted to discuss your worldbuilding as well for this exact reason, I hope I can convince you to polish up some of those drafts!

Anne: In practical terms, I would say that my two biggest role models for world building are Jack Shear from Tales of the Grotesque and Dungeonesque and Trey Causey from From the Sorcerer's Skull. Because they do so much of it. Jack has only a handful of campaign settings that he's developed (so far!) but he's put a lot into them. You know, he's got his not-Ravenloft in Krevborna, and his not-Eberron in Umberwell, but he's written locations, factions, NPCs, and he posts them pretty consistently. Trey takes a much broader approach. He's probably proposed dozens of campaign settings over the years. And what he'll do is write a series of posts playing with the idea, and then move on to something else. Except sometimes he'll also come back to older ideas from time to time and drop more in there.

Max: Here I am saying I want to hear more about you, and you still can't help but promote others ;)! No offense to them of course, they are also deserving of recognition.

Anne: I really can't help it! I think it's because I want to give context, but in a social scene like this, that context is always going to be other people.

Max: I was messing around a bit, but that's a very good point.

Anne: My point is that they are two people who do a lot of worldbuilding, who have kept at it, and who I kind of look to for inspiration. Jack's way of doing things is more project oriented I think. Trey's model looks more like the way I do things, and it's like, seeing someone do things that way feels like it gives me permission to do the same, you know?

I would say that probably a lot of what we all are doing when we're worldbuilding is really like reskinning. We're trying to find a new surface to lay on top of our preferred style of playing the game, either to keep it interesting, or just to make it more personal. And maybe by starting with a new appearance, you find that it takes you in a new direction that you might not have expected before. But most of us aren't trying to invent something really new. A few people are. But most of us are not out there inventing new perspectives on imagining fictional space or the passage of time or totally new non-dice based mechanics for deciding how things go. Most of us are putting a new coat of paint and dropping in our favorite pop cultural references into a game of exploration and fighting and "tell me what you do next" and rolling some kind of dice to decide.

I'm definitely drawn to science fiction and science fantasy more than pure fantasy, and I think that shows up in the kinds of worldbuilding posts that I write.

The post I wrote about set-ups is kind of interesting, because in a way it's not really worldbuilding in terms of content, it actually is me thinking about the underlying... mechanics is probably the wrong word here, but like, structure that lets you play the game. I don't even know how I learned it, but even as a kid I somehow knew that awful "you all meet at a bar, suddenly an old man in the corner starts telling a story" setup. Which is like, maybe the worst way I can think of to try to start a game, because it gives you nothing to work with. You'd be better off just being told "this is the adventure, go do it".

Max: *groan*

Anne: The one variation on that I'd like to try sometime would be like "you're in a bar and the band is singing about an adventure site, the site is within walking distance of the bar, you're all drunk, go adventure!" I would use the White Stripes song "Broken Bricks," which is about poking around an abandoned construction site after hours.

Max: See again! That's a clever way of taking this tired trope, and finding a way to make it interesting.

Anne: But really, how many set-ups are there in D&D land that we ever really think of? MAR Barker is kind of famous for having the players start off as recently arrived visitors from another country who know nothing of the local ways, to try to match up what the characters are doing and what the players are doing. And then there's the kind of "quest-giver" trope where you all are sort of undefined "heroes" who get approached to go solve someone else's problem for them. I mean, we can think of others, the Electric Bastionland thing where you're deeply in debt to some powerful faction that wants to squeeze the money out of you comes to mind immediately just for being novel.

But all of those tropes are silent about what kinds of factions might exist in the world and how they might relate to each other. I think when I wrote that thing about Deep Space Nine, Jack had just written about using Dune as a model for how to set up some starting factions in your game. And I had probably been watching Star Trek on Netflix recently. And so that inspired me to think about another example of a general way of arranging some starting factions into a situation where virtually any choices the players make will have consequences that favor one group over another and lead to larger domain-level changes in the environment.

Max: I actually am ashamed to admit, I had intended to use that post as the basis for a table of my own Setups, but I struggled to think of other good examples to use or how to effectively abstract them 😦. But principally I loved that idea.

Anne: I'm not sure I could come up with another one off the top of my head if you asked me to right now. It's probably a bit of an under-explored space. Maybe someone who studies literature would be aware of more?

Well, okay, saying that has made me lie about not being able to think of another one, because Romeo and Juliet comes to mind immediately as an example of a set-up where two factions are engaged in more or less open warfare that's starting to really heat up, and now here's this opportunity to try to either mend the conflict or make it much, much worse.

Max: Ooh that's a good one!

Anne: Still better than "you, a crew of 15th level demigods, are guarding a caravan like a crowd of 1 hit point stooges".

Max: Well that's a low bar lol, but Romeo & Juliet is a genuinely good idea.

Anne: Or, "the wizard, who is like unto a deity in his ability to bend reality as he sees fit, has asked you to go perform a menial task that is still difficult enough you wonder why he didn't do it himself".

What else would you like to talk about?

Max: I'm glad you asked, there actually was one more topic I wanted to make sure we saved time for. Talk to me about Bon Mots!

Anne: Okay, real talk, I probably post those because I don't have a Twitter account, and so witticisms that probably would (or should!) go there end up on my blog instead.

Max: I just noticed I'm the only person who commented on the first Bon Mots post lol.

The world would be a better place if more people did Bon Mots, you are doing it right, they are doing it wrong.

Anne: I think my first Bon Mots post ever was actually right after Google Plus went down, and I wanted to preserve a few things people had said that I really liked. And then I had a couple that were just silly juxtapositions I couldn't get out of my head, like the characters of Porchy and Pouchy on The Crown and Orphan Black. But I think the one's you're talking about the most recent two, right? Where I wrote little short stories about comic book characters.

Max: Ooh I didn't realize Bon Mots goes further back, I thought they were all the comic book character short stories. Can you briefly explain the concept of Bon Mots for readers who don't know what we're talking about?

Anne: I can try! 

So, without looking at a dictionary, I would define a bon mot as something kind of witty and intelligent that someone says in conversation. Oscar Wilde's "The Importance of Being Earnest" is basically just an entire series of people talking in these witty one liners. I would say what I'm writing is more silly than smart, so I'm flattering myself a bit when I call them that.

Max: Not at all! At least the two comic book ones are pure genius!

Anne: Ah, thank you. Right, so the most recent ones are kind of ridiculous scenarios involving comic book characters. I don't think they even rise to the level of being called short stories. They're probably more like vignettes.

How I've written those has been that I've been chatting with some people on Discord, and someone will say something that inspires me to want to tell a little story. I actually can't remember how the one with Darkseid and Cinderblock came about, except that the idea of a mistaken identity misadventure came to me, and that seemed like the correct way for it to play out.

The one about Punisher avenging Ice Man was because of talking to some of the people I write Bones of Contention with about finding yourself, as a player, in a situation where you're sworn to get revenge on whoever mysteriously killed this poor goblin you found, and then meeting the ogre or whatever who did it, and the ogre immediately offers you a quest to go kill more goblins, and then doing that player character thing we all do, where you try to rationalize behavior that would be totally sociopathic in anything resembling real life, where you really just want to turn every situation to your advantage without caring about which fictional people get fictionally hurt.

Humphrey Bogart's character in "The Maltese Falcon" is a great example of player character behavior actually, because he just lies to everyone and tells them whatever they want to hear, all the while trying to pursue his own agenda that doesn't really line up with any of theirs.

So the Punisher story was my attempt to reframe the scenario into a slightly more realistic setting to illustrate my position, which was that even if the ogre was too strong for you to fight, your previous oath of vengeance should probably preclude you from actively going out and killing more goblins like the one you first felt sorry for. (The counter arguments to that are several, not least, who cares if you don't keep your fictional word to get fake revenge on the not actual murder of a non-existent being!)

I don't get the inspiration to write things like that super often, but it's fun, and you'll probably see more of them in the future.

Max: I hope so! 

Ok, well I don't think we can top Bon Mots, but even if not, are there any final things you'd like to say or discuss before we wrap up?

I know I started off talking about your community contributions, but I'm glad we got to talk about your own inspirations and idea as well, and I hope we see more of them in the future.

Especially Bon Mots.

Anne: I think one of my goals for the year is to try to go back and either finish up some things that I've started, or at least add a bit more to them. If you were to go through the title list of my posts, you might notice that there are several part ones that never actually get a published follow up. I really need to finish my posts about Barbarian Prince. And I have a couple more ideas for science fantasy factions. And I'm excited about my adventure writing project, although somehow I've temporarily stalled on writing my post-mortem of my first attempt to create the thing.

The last couple years have been pretty rough for almost everyone I think, because of the ongoing pandemic that somehow keeps producing new bigger waves that dwarf the old ones, instead of new smaller waves that show us things are moving in the right direction, and they've been tough for me too.

In 2020, I found it very hard to read anything longer than a paragraph or two because of how overwhelmed by it all I felt. And then in 2021 I got myself able to read again, but it became very difficult for me to write anything.

I can't say that I think I've totally gotten over that hangup, but I do think I'm finding it easier to get things down in text again, and I want to, I'm looking forward to, increasing my blogging output over last year's rather dismal total.

Max: Ya... As you know, I'm actually still recovering from covid myself (fortunately a very mild case)*. I'm sorry that this ongoing moment has affected your ability to focus on reading and writing, but for whatever it's worth, I do really hope you're able to follow through on this goal.

* That was the case as of when the interview occurred, but I believe I am now operating at 100% again :)!

That's a rather somber note to end on, we should have ended with Bon Mots!

In all seriousness though, all the best, and thank you for this interview!

Anne: I appreciate your support, and I have to say, I'm glad that your case was mild and you're on the mend.

This is a slightly more somber conclusion that if we'd just stopped after talking about comic book hijinks, but I do feel somewhat hopeful, for right now at least, that we can do our best to make this year better than the last two. 2020 set a low bar. I have a glimmer of hope that 2022 won't limbo under it.

Klintron: Weird & Wonderful Interviews

Reminder check out the MRD Game Jam- one entrant will have art and layout commissioned for their Poltergeist Form!

Klint and I have only met recently, but I've appreciated our conversations over our shared interests such as Buddhism, the Tech Industry, and Weird Worldbuilding.

Kid Minotaur: The RPG blog. (Also his drivethrurpg publishing name).

Sewer Mutant: The indie comics blog.

Klintron: The itch.io page.

Max: When we first met, we were discussing my game Maximum Recursion Depth, and specifically the Buddhist elements of the setting. It became apparent that you are much more so involved with Buddhism than I am, so I'd be interested to learn more about your relationship with it, when and why you became interested in it, and how you feel about it.

Klint: My current relationship with it is that I'm active with the local Shingon Buddhist temple here in Portland, Oregon. By active, I mean my wife and I attend the weekly Dharma talks (on Zoom for the time being) and meditate or chant mantras every day. We also attend the livestreamed Goma ritual as often as possible, which the Seattle temple hosts each month. And of course I do my best to follow the Precepts and the Eightfold Path.

It's hard to say exactly how I first got interested in Buddhism in general. It's something I've been interested in, off and on, for quite a while. I started a practice of meditating almost every day back in 2012. Though I was interested in Buddhism I wasn't ready to sign on the dotted line so to speak.

A major turning point for me was visiting Cambodia and Thailand in the fall of 2019, two majority Buddhist countries. It's hard to explain but I was left with a particular feeling upon leaving.

I didn't really act on that feeling though until early 2021 when I did a bunch of "temple hopping" on Zoom. I attended online sessions with several different local sanghas. I really felt the strongest connection with the teacher at the Shingon temple and my wife felt the same. So it was actually less a feeling of affinity with that particular sect and more of choosing him as a teacher. I think he brings the right balance of modernity and tradition to his Dharma talks.

I was raised Episcapalian, but not particularly strictly. I stopped going to church when I was a teenager. I went through several years where I was really interested in occultism and mystism, from around 2000 until something like 2007 (ironically, around the time I stopped being interested in it was when I was heavily involved in organizing a local esotericism conference). So I guess it's fitting I ended up with an "esoteric" form of Buddhism.

Max: It makes sense to me that you would lose interest in occultism around the time you tried organizing an event around it haha.

Klint: Yeah I have a habit of losing interest in things once I become too heavily involved with them. The other thing was that while organizing that it was increasingly clear that a lot of people who claimed to be powerful magickians weren't able to scrounge up the money to get a bus ticket to Portland, so that gave me a more dim view of their practices.

Max: Did you start to burn out on Grant Morrison and Alan Moore* around that time, or are those unrelated events?

* Grant Morrison and Alan Moore are both highly influential comic book writers who both identify with occultism.

Klint: Those were unrelated events. My initial interest in occultism was very motivated by Alan Moore and the industrial musician Genesis P. Orridge. I found Invisibles* just about the same time I was first starting to practice chaos magic, so one ended up reinforcing the other.

* Invisibles is a work by Grant Morrison and arguably the inspiration for The Matrix

My burning out on them later had more to do with reading too much of those particular authors to the exclusion of most other comics creators. And I suppose increased annoyance at the public personas.

Max: That makes perfect sense to me.

Klint: With Buddhism, I think a big part of it is that for some reason I was ready to be a part of an organized religion with a long tradition of practice. I can't say exactly why, but I suppose it was partially me getting older and partially the troubling state of the world.

Buddhism provides some tools for coping with one's own dissatisfaction and anxieties and so forth. I think of it as a religion, in the sense that you have to have faith that the practice actually works, that it is possible to reduce your own suffering and dissatisfaction. But it's not a faith in the existence of external beings and so forth. There are supernatural elements in the Buddha’s teaching and though I don’t want to say they’re unimportant, they don’t have to be true for the practice to be valuable. You can test the things you are supposed to have faith in through the practice. So in that sense, despite being quite old, it's a religion with  a very modern sensibility.

Max: So we haven't gone into all this yet, but you're a tech journalist, practicing Buddhist, indie tabletop RPG creator and blogger, and indie comics blogger and podcaster, and also a former occultist. That's a rather eclectic set of interests. Do you see these varying interests as being related, or at least, do you see some common underpinning in why you're drawn to these things?

Klint: I'm not sure there's a single underlying current but I suppose there are connections between the nodes there. I don't necessarily see those as all that eclectic. Tech, RPGs, and comic books are kind of a common suite of geek interests.

Max: Actually, anecdotally, I've noticed a lot of tech skepticism or outright anti-tech sentiment among some indie RPG creators. In fact, I think people like you and I may be in the minority in this regard. Perhaps you disagree with this notion in the first place, but I'm wondering if you have any thoughts or insights on the matter?

Klint: I don't know. I wouldn't necessarily think of myself as "pro-tech" or anything like that. And part of what drew me to get back into RPGs as an adult, after a large time away, was wanting a creative, in-person social activity that was also analog.

I spend a lot of time on the computer and my phone so it's always nice to do things that don't involve screens. Though playing RPGs tends to lead to creating RPGs, which leads to screen time, so it sort of backfired.

Max: Pro/Anti-Tech may be an overly reductive way of framing things, but I'm thinking about, for instance, some of the conversations around Kickstarter announcing they will be using blockchain technology. I realize talking about blockchain and NFTs are a whole can of worms and we don't need to get into the nitty gritty on it, but especially within the context of your game Mission Driven and Destiny City (and as a tech journalist!), I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on these things.

Klint: Yeah, the backlash against Kickstarter over that was sort of a surprise to me. It did seem a little knee-jerk, since we don't know what Kickstarter is going to do or how they'll use the technology—if they even use it. 

That said, I'm pretty skeptical of blockchain stuff. It's something I've been looking at for a long time. I wrote my first story on Bitcoin in 2010. At first blockchains seemed really cool and promising. But I haven't really seen a lot of really compelling use cases for blockchains that can't be addressed more simply in other ways.

And there's a lot more centralization in blockchain technologies than people acknowledge. These projects have centralized development teams that make the decisions that go into the design of these things and as we saw with the DAO heist way back in 2016, it's possible to "undo" transactions on a blockchain if the developers decide to. Users can revolt and fork a blockchain, which we've seen some of, but that just creates a new centralized project.

One of the big problems that blockchain-based technologies try to solve is the problem of having only one person or organization controlling something. But that's a problem that's already solved through things like foundations with multiple member organizations. It's a non-technical fix that arguably works much better than a technical fix.

I think a lot of what it comes down to is people wanting technical fixes to non-technical problems, and the fact that the original Bitcoin blockchain was a really clever piece of technology and people really want to find uses for it. But it's fundamentally a solution in search of a problem. Maybe someday someone will figure it out, and there could be use cases I'm not familiar with, but it largely seems like the equivalent of trying to use Rube Goldberg devices to do things just because they're cool, even if it's an incredibly inefficient way of doing things.

Max: As a software engineer, I am familiar with the "solution in search of a problem" phenomenon!

I'm perhaps somewhat more optimistic about its potential, but I don't necessarily disagree with anything you said. The decentralization angle is often over-stated, and whatever form it takes, if it does stick, I'm inclined to think will be something non-linear.

I had mentioned previously Mission Driven, the "Cyberpunk Adventure Game Set in the Modern World", and the companion book "A Pocket Guide to Destiny City".

Where so many scifi cyberpunk settings feel derivative and devoid of anything fantastical, you've created a game set in the real world, with explicitly nothing science fictional or fantastical per se, and yet it so elegantly portrays the Weirdness and fantasticalness of the world today, for better and worse.

What are your intentions for Mission Driven? What are you trying to do with it?

Klint: It dates back to 2010. Around that time I read a couple different articles about how we were now basically living in a cyberpunk dystopia. One was an Onion article, the other was written by a friend. There's the argument that we've been living in a cyberpunk dystopia for a long time. There's a saying that science fiction isn't about the future, it's about the present. Cyberpunk was largely a response to what was happening during the Reagan/Thatcher-era. The Soviet Union was in decline and it seemed evident that capitalism won. Corporations seemed more powerful than ever. There was a growing awareness of environmental degradation. Labor's power was on the decline. Etc.

But at the same time, I was sort of captivated by the idea of telling cyberpunk stories set in the modern world. Around this same time I read William Gibson's Zero History, which was set in the the then-present day. But it still read like a cyberpunk novel, which makes sense since Gibson helped create the genre.

So I thought I would create a game that would be to Gibson's present-day trilogy (known as the "Blue Ant" trilogy) what Cyberpunk 2020 and Shadowrun were to Gibson's first trilogy (the Sprawl trilogy).

Originally I thought I would do that by creating a setting for a generic RPG system. I started with Mini-Six in mind, then Fate. I worked on it in fits and starts over a few years. Then I discovered Apocalypse World in 2016. I never quite felt comfortable with Fate, so I decided to shift gears and do a Powered by the Apocalypse game instead. But that involved a really different approach, one where setting was less important and classes and mechanics were more important. So the setting and the game diverged a lot.

I've reached a point now where "cyberpunk in the real world" feels a lot less clever and fun than it did in 2010. Maybe it's me just getting disenchanted with it, but it also just feels like, especially in the pandemic era, the world is just too bleak so I'm not sure how much further I will develop Mission Driven. There's a bit of a catch 22 right now where I'm not all that enthused to continue working on it because it hasn't generated much interest, but I suspect part of why it hasn't generated much interest is because I'm not that enthused about it.

So I don't know what the future holds. I'm pretty proud of parts of it. I released it under a Creative Commons license in hopes that people will find parts to scavenge for other games.

Like your mecha game for example.*

* I have been considering adding elements of Mission Driven / Destiny City into Get into the Machine, Shinji! or whatever that project becomes. If nothing else, I have found it a source of inspiration.

Max: That idea that science fiction is about the present rather than future, and specifically that we're already in the cyberpunk dystopia, is something I generally agree with and I think is part of what makes Mission Driven so interesting.

I am actually not a huge Gibson fan, but now you've got me potentially interested in the Blue Ant trilogy.

I hear you on that point about it feeling less clever and fun than it did in 2010, but at the same time, I almost feel like in a way, that's what makes something like Mission Driven even more powerful. 

There is something to be said for, even in acknowledging this kind of awful reality we've wound up with, that there is still Wonder in it. And I do think that's nontrivial- like I don't mean to make light of all the suffering that occurs as a result of the way things are, but at the same time, I honestly sometimes worry about a reaction that is just as bad or worse than what we have now, and one that could be avoided, with the right perspective- which isn't to say I think I have that perspective, but if we aren't all trying to think about these things, how can we expect to create something better?

Klint: I agree, I just think there might be better avenues for imagining solutions and so forth than Mission Driven 🙂. Destiny City on the other hand I think might have a future as a setting or implied for scenarios for different games, ones with more fantastic elements to them like urban fantasy or superheroes. 

Max: I am by no means opposed to adding fantastical or superheroic elements to Mission Driven / Destiny City, but I think that's still consistent with the general idea, of trying to recognize and analyze the world for what it is. I actually was not aware that that was how you felt about Mission Driven, but for what it's worth, while I understand and respect what you're saying, I hope I can change your mind. 

Klint: I hope I change my mind about Mission Driven too. I worked hard on it. We'll see. I've thought about doing versions set in the more recent past: cyberpunk adventures in the 70s or 80s, where phone phreaking, pirate broadcasts, radio jamming, etc. would be priorities. 

Max: That could be interesting as well, and could provide room for not just examining where we are, but how we got here

Klint: Yeah, I'd like to find other ways to do some of what I was trying to do with Mission Driven, but in ways that people, including me, will find more fun.

Max: You have three other adventures, Logomancy, Trypophobia, and Be the Media. Trypophobia is clever and very clearly commentary in its own right, and Be the Media, in particular, is a really cool, non-violent conflict-based scenario. They feel like they could be part of Mission Driven, or achieve similar goals. 

Am I correct in my thinking abut these scenarios? Do you have any other thoughts you'd like to share about them?

Klint: Be the Media is sort of a micro-game version of Mission Driven. It's like a one page game based around the Watchdogs crewbook. It was sort of an experiment in trying to break pieces of Mission Driven off into bite sized chunks. It doesn't feel like a successful experiment.

Trypophobia and Logomancy were scenarios I came up with for a Delta Green campaign I ran in 2018. I thought they were pretty interesting so I wrote them up as system-neutral scenarios. I also tested Trypophobia out in Cthulhu Dark.

Max: Well again, for what it's worth, I actually felt very inspired by Be The Media, I thought it was a cool idea for how to design a non-violent conflict-based scenario. 

Trypophobia, I don't want to spoil it, but I think it has a really cool conceit where, from the players' perspective, it may look like one situation, but then there's a nice twist. And I appreciate the subtext of it as well.

Klint: Trypophobia and Logomancy are similar to Mission Driven and Be the Media in that they were both meant to explore timely topics through RPGs.  But they do have fantastical elements. Logomancy more so than Trypophobia.

The high concept in Logomancy is that there's a role playing game that is driving people "mad" (to use the problematic Lovecraftian term), much like the fictional play the King in Yellow does. It includes a game within a game that the PCs can play.

Max: On an unrelated note, we haven't yet talked about Sewer Mutant, your indie comics blog and podcast. How did that all start?

Klint: A few years ago I started revisiting a lot of 90s comics stuff that I grew up with but also grew out of. Stuff like Rob Liefeld and the other early Image creators' work.

A lot of that stuff is bad in a lot of different ways, but I was realizing how important that stuff was to me growing up. Weirdly, I think Liefeld's erratic linework influenced my handwriting, as an odd example.

So my nostalgic interest in that stuff lead me to this YouTube channel called Cartoonist Kayfabe, where they do a lot of flip-throughs and discussions of different comics, a lot of it the same 90s stuff the hosts and I both grew up on. They did an episode on what they called "Outlaw Comics," which are these super dark, black and white, heavily inked (some might say over-inked) comics like Faust, The Crow, and Razor. I liked a lot of that stuff when I was 13 or 14, especially The Crow which had a profound effect on me. I never read Faust back then because I couldn't find it. 

All that Outlaw stuff was sort of mysterious to me and I found myself thinking a lot about the context in which it was produced: the era of tabloid television like Hard Copy, near-peak crime rates in the US, etc. 

And how that paralleled with the present click-bait hyperpartisan media and increased anxiety over crime even though at the time crime was at historic lows (though that's changed since the pandemic). 

So I started digging out a lot of my old comics and buying up stuff I wanted as a kid but never had access to. I grew up in a small town in Wyoming, so it was hard to get indie comics.

I posted pics to Instagram with various thoughts and research notes and people seemed to dig it.

And I also started posting stuff related to the Amateur Creators Union, which was a group that existed for a couple of years in the mid-90s to publish work by, well, amateur comics creators.

They published a newsletter, lots of ashcans, and one anthology. A few members, like Ale Garza, went on to bigger things.

It was utterly forgotten, there was no record on the internet of the Amateur Creators Union ever existing.

So I started posting about that as well.

I got laid off from Wired magazine early in the pandemic, so I had some time on my hands and decided to write some articles about all this stuff I'd been posting to Instagram. I tracked down people and did some interviews, and started pitching the story to various comics and pop culture publications. No one was interested, which is understandable. This stuff is niche and those sites are pretty dependent on covering stuff that has mass appeal. I didn't want to write about the Fantastic Four or whatever though, and I knew there were people who wanted to read the articles I had in mind.

So I started Sewer Mutant to publish them. I really didn't want to start a new publication since there are a million comics and pop culture sites out there already, but it was the only way I could get these articles out there in the form I wanted.

Which actually seems fitting because they're largely stories about people self-publishing stuff.

Max: It's funny you say all of this, as I think I have a very similar relationship with the post-9/11 era of superhero comics; stuff like The Ultimates, The Boys, The Authority, and Punisher Max (even though all but the latter of these I did not read until later, actually...). 

Also, I don't mean to derail things too much but I do think it's important to clarify, my understanding is that that's actually not entirely true about the violent crime relapse during the pandemic. It has increased relative to where it's been since basically the mid to late 90's, but it's nowhere near what it was previously. The violent crime wave of the 20th century and it's relationship with comics is something I'm also very much interested in though! Also, while I'm no longer as inclined to agree with the theory, the book Freakonomics has an interesting take on it, although there's a more recent theory that I'm not more inclined to believe (although it's likely an interaction of several things and not just one).

I'm sorry to hear about Wired. I used to work for Condé Nast as well actually.

The struggle with niche interests is so real, and so frustrating. A big part of why I give these interviews is to try to give a platform, however small, for other people out there who I think are doing interesting and unique things, that don't necessarily have that kind of mainstream resonance. 

Klint: Yes that's right about the crime rates, though it varies by city. I just mean that we're not really at historically low rates anymore. My point is that it’s about the perception, the anxiety that people feel regardless of the actual threat. Arguably, people were disproportionately worried about crime even in the 80s and 90s which is part of why we ended up with over-incarceration problems, but obviously, it’s all a bit complicated.

Max: That's a whole other conversation, but in any case, I think I'm developing a deeper understanding of your comics sensibilities, and it's really interesting!

Klint: I don't even know what my comics sensibilities are anymore because I've spent a lot of the past two  years revisiting all that old stuff, much of which is frankly not very good. My favorite stuff though does overlap with Outlaw Comics though: Grendal, Alack Sinner, Stray Bullets. I'm really into crime fiction and horror, basically. But my tastes vary a lot. Upgrade Soul and Blue is the Warmest color are also all-time favorites of mine.

Max: I actually have not read Grendal but I know of it, nor have I even heard of those others. To be honest, a lot of comics written before like the 80's, like even a lot of the really renowned stuff, I can appreciate it for what it is, but much of it I would not necessarily call "good" haha, but it still was the source of inspiration for all of these other amazing things, and I do find inspiration in some of those comics as well. I think it's ok for something to be not good or to fail, if it fails in interesting ways.

Max: I've really enjoyed this conversation and there are several things we've discussed which I'd like to follow up with you on later, but we should probably wrap up since I know you need to get going! Thank you for your time though. Do you have any last things you'd like to say before we wrap up?

Klint: I can't think of anything else. Thanks for the invite, it's always interesting to be on the other side of the interview table.